"James A. Donald" wrote in message news:ki4bj4ttmfreqsoeq8fdb6s5ahumur0h73@4ax.com... >> "*Anarcissie*" wrote: > >>>> It's not really a conspiracy theory to notice the >>>> effects of the FRB on the world's economy. The fact >>>> that Congress has the _theoretical_ power to dissolve >>>> it does not mean it has the actual power to dissolve >>>> it or even control it. >> >> The idea that the fed runs the US tends to turn into the >> theory that Jews run the world, a classic conspiracy >> theory. But the bailout demonstrates the supremacy of >> the Fed over the voters. >> >> Government is controlled by government, of which the Fed >> is a very powerful part, rather than controlled by >> voters. Everyone who voted for hope and change, and is >> seeing government as usual, should be realizing this >> now. The bailout was a Fed initiative. Bush >> compliantly went along with it, even though socializing >> the financial sector is radically contrary to his >> ideology and the ideology of those who voted for him. >> Obama is compliantly going along with it, even though >> handouts to the failed rich to keep them rich is >> radically contrary to his ideology and the ideology of >> those who voted for him. >> >> Voters are notoriously prone to vote for easy money, and >> the bubble was in substantial part pandering to the >> voters. The affirmative action easy money for hispanics >> was 100% pandering to the voters. But the bailout is >> contemptuously pissing on the voters, both right and >> left, showing who is the boss. >> I can agree with your overall who;'s got the power aspects of above. I think where things get a little lost these days is the assumption that both the real estate bubble, and the subsequent defaults was a direct result *primarily* of sub-prime loans to minorities via Govt edict, and via Fannie/Freddie etc. Having looked at the many figures about this and commentaries [ sorry couldn;t be bothered to dig up the figures yet again here ] it seems pretty clear that neither assumption above is accurate at all. Yes, CRA type intitiated minority/poor area sub-prime loans did foreclose/default, but they account for around 20% or less of all the Sub-Prime & newer ARM loans. Easy credit was much much easier for high income folks who wanted to re-mortgage and spend the cash, or re-invest in investment homes/apartemnts to rent. Easy sub-prime credit was also available for "average workers" who didn't qualify for CRA type intitiatives and went from renting to buying their own home because the VERY LAX controls of the Lenders ... not becasue the borrowers were predatory. On top of that then was the re-packaging into new style MDS's which went out around the world for years, which freed up the money again for lenders to go out and sell even more sub-prime loans with ARM's and promote the hell out of them in tv/radio/print media. It was primarily the EASY LOW-INTEREST CREDIT that caused both the unsustainable bubble and the subsequent defaults across the board, with the unbeleiveably high ARM [ adjustable rate mortgages] Interest charges that kicked in 2-3 years after the intitial intro rate. When high income established folks were able to get or maintain their 4-5% Prime Mortgages, the lower middle income/worker income, and those that re-financed existing homes during the media storm of "cheap finance" adverts were suddenly confronted with 12-16% interest and their monthly repayments nearly tripled from when they got the Loan. No one "qualified them" when they got the loan to be able to repay at 16% interest on a property which was already over-priced in the bubble market. Bubbles always end, and those that could walk away did .. because that is what the Law allows in the USA, and no where else in the world. That was part of the bubble bursting, just the nature of the system in place in the USA. It's not very hard to find thousands of examples of predatory lenders & real estate agents being arrested and charged in the USA for mis-representation, fraud and false advertising by the FBI and State police. People who actually DID qualify for Prime Fixed rate Mortgages were deceptively and corruptly sold into Sub-prime ARM's. Why? because the sales person, the real estate agents, the lenders worked in unison to push up home prices and maximise commissions at the point of sale. I know of no "poor or minority person" being arrested for lying to their lender and taking advantage of CitiGroup for example. Sure some people who took loans lied thru their teeth, but many more Lenders encourgaed this and ALL of them permitted it because of their own Profit motive. Now on top of all this is people who have defaulted on home mortgages that didn't go anywhere near Sub-Prime loans, or ARM's, or CRA, and yet they too have been in financial trouble. So why only focus on the hispanics or the blacks in run down poor areas that the CRA was designed to 'support' if possible. These people are not bankers, accountants , nor lawyers and no one should expect them to be. And they are NOT the ones responsible for the bubble crashing, the easy credit, nor the sheer majority of the defaults, and the worthlessness of the MBS's, and NOR are they responsible for the FRB, the congress, Bush and co, the Lehmanns, the Citi's or anyone else's behaviour in the Financial System. And then there's the obvious addition of honest mortgagees who have simply lost their jobs, or gone broke with medical or other unexpected events that have been forced to default & sell their homes. The whole Bubble thing started to collapse, and then all the dominoes that had been setup by extremely low Fed rates for years which flushed cheap credit into the system, the new marketing of sub-prime loans for anyone, the lack of regulation on lenders, finance sales people, TV ads, and real estate agents, the MBS's, the hopeless balance sheets of Financiers, the falling stock market that forced some to sell real estate for urgent cash .... etc etc etc ... and NONE of that has anything to do with any low paid hispanic or black who wouldn't account for anything like 10% of the entire real estate mortgage market in the USA. The cheapest homes and the smallest size mortgages DO NOT a real estate market crash NOR financial system meltdown make. cheers >> -- >> ---------------------- >> We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because >> of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this >> right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. >> >> http://www.jim.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Les Cargill" wrote in message news:4935d22d$0$17038$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com... >> patmpowers@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Over and over people write that they WANT the system to collapse. >>>> They see it is working contrary to their interests and want to >>>> restart. I feel this is important. >> >> They see wrong. They simply don't know what's at risk. > >>>> Not only that, the US has >>>> frightened the world to such a degree that many in a position to do >>>> something about it would like to see its wealth greatly reduced. > >> The US hasn't frightened the world at all. The root of any >> anti-American sentiment is generally self-interest, especially >> in places where the economy is considered a closed system. Patently false and illogical non-sequitur. Other people or nations being frightened or seriously concerned about the USA's financial system and way of doing "business" has nothing to do with any degree of anti-americanism per se. It has nothing to do with ideology, but about viewing the incompetence and illogical way of mis-managing what is the worlds largest economy as being somewhat scary. Yes it's about a rational self-interest, but only in the sense that if things continue as they have without systemic and attitudinal change in the USA then it;s possible that the world-wide affects will take others down a path no one wishes to go, nor is necessary shopuld the USA apply some common basic rational management practices on it's financial industry from the FED down. It's not rocket science, and the rest of the world is simply wondering why the obvious that they have already implemented to maintain stability and fairness and good competitive practices is so damn difficult to see clearly, and apparently impossible to be implemented in the USA. >> Hugo Chavez, for example, has made great political capital >> as an anti-American politician. It might be his native >> belief, but it's also shrewd. You are allowing yourself to be duped by extremist news media and political spin. These are your adopted beliefs, and you'd do better to sort out your own false beliefs than project that personal shortcoming onto Hugo. >> I say this because of what I've seen Henri Bernard Levy say on >> Charlie Rose, years back. When I look for counterevidence, >> it's never there... other than people regurgitating the stilted >> sang froid rhetoric of a Noam Chmosky, there's nothing there. Then you are simply not looking hard enough. But beliefs tend to block that which does not fit the world view of entrenched beliefs. Chomsky & Levy's opinions have nothing to do with the reality. Try looking at the facts, the reality first hand and draw your own conclusions based on the reality not filtered self-interested views of the already self-deluded and mis-informed? You either are Pro-Democracy as a principle & value or you are not. You are either willing to look at the whole story, or you aren't. Right now, by your own comments, apparently you are not. >> I wouldn't argue that personal sense of meaning is bloody hard to come >> by. But the nihilism is *galloping* these days. I see more and >> more of it on Usenet. The US is just the tallest target, not >> to mention clumsy ( in the elephants trample grass >> sense). Maybe it's simply a matter of personal over-sensitivity and misguided loyalties to myths. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just one example of the poor & CRA loans being responsible myth?? Community Reinvestment Act had nothing to do with subprime crisis Posted by: Aaron Pressman on September 29 Fresh off the false and politicized attack on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, today we're hearing the know-nothings blame the subprime crisis on the Community Reinvestment Act - a 30-year-old law that was actually weakened by the Bush administration just as the worst lending wave began. This is even more ridiculous than blaming Freddie and Fannie. The Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1977, requires banks to lend in the low-income neighborhoods where they take deposits. Just the idea that a lending crisis created from 2004 to 2007 was caused by a 1977 law is silly. But it's even more ridiculous when you consider that most subprime loans were made by firms that aren't subject to the CRA. University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: "In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat." Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley (PDF file here). http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html start here, and then do your own cross checking of the *figures* and the data, and the reports of charges and arrests for "fraud etc" all over the USA. cheers ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I get quite excited when I stumble, by pure co-incidence, and in very surprising ways upon valid confirmation of pre-existing views of the world and what's happening that stack with the reality of now, and the historical patterns of human behaviour and experience. When I do, I also like to share it, because for me that is a meaningful action to take. It matters not whether others are as pleased, or not. Over recent times a lot has occurred "out there" that has been like reviewing the assemply of Leggo Blocks of a reality forming that I had been lucky enough to percieve a long time before. It actually reminds of when I first was exposed to the Internet in 1995. In my minds eye I could see very clearly what this fledgling thing called the WWW was actually about in the longterm and the massive positive changes, and individual power, it would bring. At the time, banks were knocking back people seeking finance to start ISP's simply because the bankers did not have a clue what it all meant. There was no "history or records" existing, so they couldn't think outside the accepted BOX of how things were. A few years later they were begging to lend money to any Internet related idea that crossed their desks. Now is another such time, but it's crucible this time is being built inside the swirling currents of the systemic meltdown and crisis in the world's Financial, Banking, Stock Markets, and Economic Boxes of the way things have been .... and moving towards the way things will be in the not too distant future. Personally I find this exciting, and not threatening. Knowledge, accurate Information and the Wisdom that can come from such things is not something to be feared. Nor is letting go of the old ways necessarily confronting or dangerous when one can focus on both the immediate challenges as well as the long term opportunities that always exist when Change is afoot in the world like it is now. Nothing will stop this, one either goes with the flow or drowns under the weight of the Tsunami if they try to resist the unresistable. As always it is a personal choice, and it is this individual focus that too me is far more important than anything else. imho. So I would encourage anyone interested in their own personal future and the longer term societal and political shifts in accepted Beliefs, in Values, and Responsibility of action, to read the following article and start thinking more outside the box if you haven't begun to already. Everything I have posted of late follows a similar theme, what I like about this article is how succinct it is in capturing the essence of what's happening and coming at a great rate of knots. A key question I have come to value is this : "What is more important to you? Being happy, or being right?" Another is : "How good are you at suspending your existing accepted Beliefs about things for a moment, in order to see more of what's going on in the world, and in your own life?" Enjoy, Sean ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You will be either a winner or a loser, there will be no middle ground! A Speech by Richard Maybury at his Phoenix Investment Seminar April 12, 2008 雾务 Phoenix, Arizona April 12, 2008 When talking about geopolitics and economics, it's easy to fall into the trap of being a gloom and doomer, so I'll start this presentation with some good news. On September 11, 2001, times began getting hard, and they will probably get a lot harder before they get better. But they don't have to be hard for everyone, meaning they don't have to be hard for you. They can be a big opportunity. I find it helps to take the long view. Have a sense of history. I once read that there have been 22 civilizations on this planet before ours. The ancient Aztecs, Incas, Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Egyptians and so on. By that count, our civilization is number 23, and after it declines, there will be a 24th, and a 25th, and so on. Because the tide comes in, and the tide goes out. 23 times it's come in, and, so far, 22 times it's gone out. And it's going to go out again, and in again, and out, and in. Economist Milton Friedman once pointed out that as near as he was able to determine, the fall of each civilization was preceded by a vast increase in the size and power of government. The thing to focus on is that no matter how bad things get, there are always people doing well. Either because they understand what's happening and how to prepare, or just out of dumb luck, being in the right places at the right times, they've prospered while others have been hurt. Perhaps the best example is the Black Death in the fourteenth century. It was one of the worst catastrophes in history. In a space of just four years, the bubonic plague killed somewhere between a fourth and a half of the total population of Europe, and left a lot of the remainder in bad shape and starving. An estimated 75 million were killed, across Asia and Europe. But the ones who stayed healthy, either because of natural immunity or because they escaped to safe areas, ended up much more wealthy. You see, the plague did not destroy the land, buildings, tools, money, roads, windmills, and other forms of wealth, so there was a lot of surplus wealth just laying around for the survivors to pick up. In many cases, I'm sure, a survivor who had been just a farm laborer ended up owning a whole farm, and in some cases, several farms or a whole village. His personal wealth increased perhaps a hundred fold or more. Europe didn't vanish, and in fact, a few generations later, it was a much better place. That's the way it's been all through history. In every crisis some people have prospered, and been around to enjoy the good times afterward. In the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, the Vietnam War, World War I, World War II, the oil shocks of the 1970s, the Great Depression, there were always people who came through fine, and lived well during the good times afterwards, because they were in the right places at the right times, doing the right things. We're facing it again today, and the people who weather the storm will find when it's over that they are a lot better off than they were when it began. Because most of the real wealth will survive. The land, offices, factories, cars, boats, planes, computers, refrigerators, hockey pucks, baseballs and Frisbees are not going to just vanish into thin air. But they will change hands. They're changing hands right now, which is what you've been seeing in the subprime real estate mess. The houses are not vanishing, they're changing hands. The trick is to be on the receiving end of the wealth, not the losing end, by being prepared. In the Great Depression of the 1930s, the real wealth 雾务 the skyscrapers, farms and steamships 雾务 did not disappear, they changed hands. And that's what my newsletter, Early Warning Report, is about. I'm doing my best to make sure my readers are on the receiving end, not the losing end, of the transfers of wealth. As you know, if you are a long time reader of Early Warning Report, so far we're doing very well, mostly because my readers are people who have the courage to face what's happening. They are part of a very small elite segment of the population who have refused to stick their heads in the sand, and who have instead decided to study what's really happening, and take advantage of it. My readers are people who refuse to be victims. Unlike most of the population, they're not just sitting there on the railroad tracks hoping that before the train comes roaring down on them the government will snatch them to safety. Maybe it will, but that's not the way to bet. Waiting for the government to save you wasn't the way to bet in the 22 civilizations before us, and it's not the way to bet now. Because, as Ronald Reagan said, government isn't the solution, it's the problem. 22 times it's been the problem, and it's still the problem. It's not going to save us. It's going to try to save itself. More good news: America is one of the best places in the world to prosper from the crises that roll around occasionally, because Americans are taught nothing useful about history, especially economic history. Even the ones who have PhDs in business and finance, they know very, very little about economic history. So they make a lot of big mistakes, and are forced to sell their assets at fire sale prices. Hard times are bargain hunting times. The more often you can pick up a newspaper, read a headline, and say to yourself, I remember reading about this happening before, the better equipped you are to profit from whatever is coming. Again, when the wealth changes hands, someone is on the losing end, and someone is on the winning end. There's no middle ground 雾务 no way to break even 雾务 you are either going to be a winner or a loser. Summarizing, in geopolitics and economics, bad things happen. But they never happen to everyone, and they don't have to happen to you. Doug Casey once made the comment that, the future of mankind is in the stars, not in the breadline. I agree. We are headed for a civilization something like the one depicted in the Star Trek stories. We will get there faster if governments get out of our way, but we will get there. from : http://www.richardmaybury.com/bulletin-041608.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Background Info ... 1913 FRB created; 1944 Bretton Woods; 1971 Fiat Money - Bretton Woods II; 2008/09 The House of Cards begins falling down .......... Know your history, it explains the present so easily. Long winded and overdone and very US Centric but still useful info :- America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version - 1:51:16 - May 5, 2007 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173 http://www.freedomtofascism.com Bon Jour mon ami -- Another SORR Point Memo from the Sean O'Reilly Report : Fair and Balanced and Free ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "James A. Donald" wrote in message news:jbrej4h8dpvt9pdh43k6lskg60tghdis2d@4ax.com... >> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:14:01 +1100, "sorrpoint" > >>>> Fresh off the false and politicized attack on Fannie >>>> Mae and Freddie Mac, today we're hearing the >>>> know-nothings blame the subprime crisis on the >>>> Community Reinvestment Act - a 30-year-old law that >>>> was actually weakened by the Bush administration just >>>> as the worst lending wave began. >> >> Bush's American Dream Downpayment act was a massive and >> dramatic strengthening of affirmative action in lending, >> touching off an immediate and massive rise in the >> proportion of loans made to blacks and hispanics. >> Sounds "plausible" but is it actually true in the big picture??? You neglected the EASY availablilty of CREDIT, the globally-divergent low interest rates, the NON-stop advertising by Lenders for people to RE-Finance their homes, and get credit cards, the manipulative practices of "sales-people" selling finance to borrowers on commission only, the BANKS and Lenders happily giving Sub-Prime loans with ARM's when the borrower could actually qualify as a Prime Loan borrower on fixed rates, the lies, the deceptions, the manipulations of "finance and business people " and spend spend spend mantra of the USA --- all that was a far greater motivation, and precursor than anything passed in Congress or signed by Bush. It's like complaining about the rain, when you're already drowning in the ocean .... it might be true, but it's utterly irrelevant to the significant issue .... the underlying cause the current crisis one may be in. Can you see the difference, despite how you may notice that it;s raining, or to put it back into context, no matter how many Hispanics you know went bellyup .... that does NOT automatically mean that Bush's Law, or the CRA, or anything like that was actually behind those defaults THIS TIME. White people, business people, middle class people, retired people, all types of people from all across the USA from EVERY racial profile have gone underwater ----- and it is still happening. It has taken 12 months before ANY official in the Govt has stated that unequivocally the USA has been in RECESSION since Decemeber 2007 ...... 1 year to state the bleeding obvious??? But yet you and others, because of the media focus in the past about minorities/poverty/cra etc think RACE is an issue worth noting in thsi current total economic meltdown in the USA as if *they* are to blame for all this? Really ... think it thru further, there's much more been going on here than meets the eye of gets in the media or commented on by your politicians and regulators. If they AREN't mentioning it, you could alsmost guarantee it's an important issue to look at. Here from 2007 September try this on and see what you might be missing:: Mortgage Meltdown Reporter: Paul Barry Broadcast: 17/09/2007 "When the US sneezes the rest of the world gets the cold." http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2032799.htm Last month an unfamiliar expression appeared in the Australia media. A "subprime mortgage crisis" was unfolding in the United States. Homeowners across America were defaulting on loan payments and economists warned of major financial fallout occurring anywhere from Paris to Beijing to Melbourne. But why should a foreclosure in Cleveland affect a hedge fund in Sydney? As Four Corners reports, Australia, along with the rest of the world, is at risk of a virulent economic virus thanks to financial globalisation where everything is interconnected through a sophisticated form of pass the parcel. And even more alarmingly, no-one knows just how bad it might get. "A perfect storm." Reporter Paul Barry explains how the subprime market was created through a unique set of circumstances beginning with the fallout from September 11. The program charts the rise of easy credit to the point where mortgage brokers were running out of customers. Enter the subprime loan, the loan you could get when, as one real estate agent tells Four Corners, the only criterion was to see if the client was breathing. The program reveals how predatory lenders were unregulated and often unscrupulous, targeting people they knew couldn't pay. The broker would make the loan, take a fat commission, and pass on the responsibility as quickly as possible. One lawyer tells the program: "It's American capitalism at its worst." A 'market correction' is a nice economic expression that goes nowhere near capturing the heartbreaking human cost of this financial disaster. This year and the next more than two million American families will lose their homes. Four Corners visited Cleveland, Ohio, where the streets are lined with empty houses, dead gardens and demolition notices pinned to the front doors. One in 20 homes are now in foreclosure. Paul Barry talks with home owners facing eviction and the lawyers trying to save them. "The crisis is just beginning." US economists are warning that the worst may still be to come. They are even talking about the "R" word: recession. And one leading financial expert warns if the US slips into recession: "I don't think anybody anywhere in the world is going to be immune. It's a question of degree rather than whether they're affected." VIDEO http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20070917/subprime/default.htm TRANSCRIPT http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2007/s2035637.htm Now, a quick question ...... After actually watching the program, how much of the information did you, or others know in the USA as at JULY/AUG 2007 .... 18 months ago, about the REAL nature of what was occuring then??? How much do you actually know NOW, about what has happened since, right now, and coming in 2009?? cheers HTH, i really do. >> -- >> ---------------------- >> We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because >> of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this >> right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. >> >> http://www.jim.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------